‘Everything Is Always Keep Changing’

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‘There was always sorrow, there was always violence. There was always death and disease and destruction and loss. And there’s always beauty. And if we choose to be there to see that, we get to be the ones to see that.’

— George Saunders, author

On our first episode of “Sugar Calling,” Cheryl calls her old friend and mentor from graduate school, the author George Saunders. Today, we listen in on their conversation.

On today’s episode:

Correction, April 3, 2020: In this episode, Saunders refers incorrectly to the details of a killing. The victim was actually the ex-husband of the poet Anna Akhmatova, not her husband, and the killing occurred in pre-Stalin Russia, not during the Stalinist purges.

Cheryl Strayed is the author of “Tiny Beautiful Things,” “Torch,” “Brave Enough,” and the New York Times best seller “Wild.” Her books have been translated into more than 40 languages. She lives in Portland, Oregon. @CherylStrayed

“Sugar Calling” is produced by Kelly Prime and Austin Mitchell, and edited by Sara Sarahson, with editorial oversight by Wendy Dorr and Lisa Tobin. This episode was mixed by Brad Fisher and scored by Dan Powell.